Ashley Reid

First published in 2020.

In the Living with Purpose Interview, I talk with Ashley Reid who has been in senior roles in the community sector for over 20 years and is currently the CEO of Cancer Council WA. In this episode Ashley reflects on the experiences he has had in his leadership journey and how important mentors and learning experiences have been for him.

Ashley speaks about how his career wasn’t planned out and that he gravitated to leadership roles when he realised he could work at scale and influence outcomes for more people in senior roles.

Like many CEO’s he took a while to become fully comfortable in the role and has valued the informal support and mentoring of others in leadership. Ashley says that it's important for CEOs to realise that it can be messy and a struggle at times and that can be the hidden reality that many CEO’s are not open about.

Ashley also mentions a book:

Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman

TRANSCRIPT

Hi, my name is Francis Lynch, and welcome to the living with purpose interviews. In this episode, I'm talking with Ashley Reed, who has been a leader in the community services sector for over 20 years, and is currently CEO at Cancer Council WA.

Welcome, Ashley, thanks for joining me on the living with purpose podcast, I'm looking forward to having a conversation about how purpose plays out in your life.

Just as a way of starting off, how do you introduce yourself to people?

Ashley Reid

I was giving this some thought as far as I think it's changed over time.

When I first became workers kind of got my first CEO role, I often used to use the title and it was almost I think, if I reflect on it, it's I was, I was claiming it, you know, probably a bit surprised to get my first CEO role, you know, a bit relieved. And at the same time, you know, thinking that part of who you are is also you know, what you do and claiming that authority, not just personally but for the organisation you represent. So, I'd often introduce myself, you know, hello, I'm Ashley Reed, CEO of the gala, or CEO of Cancer Council, Western Australia,

I find myself now more and more, just saying, Hi, my name is Ashley Reed, I'm with the Cancer Council, or I work for the Cancer Council.

I feel much more comfortable, I guess, in my own skin as far as not having to claim it and using the title. But I also recognise that often the title is important, it's important to sometimes to sponsors to our supporters, to government that we might be trying to influence there is authority with that title. And the authority comes with being the the delegated authority representing the organisation and being able to make binding decisions. So I use it when I think it's useful to pursue our purpose. But it's less about kind of trying to have to claim it as in Hey, I'm the CEO now.

Even when I'm doing speeches, I tend to wing it. But I always prepare Of course, I'm respectful to the audience. And I love that saying that. I don't until I hear what I have to say, I don't know what I'd think, you know, it's one of those kinds of sayings, I was probably taught correct. But you sometimes don't know what you think about something until you hear yourself say it. And I think this format and the way you're doing it, these kind of questions, has made me realise a few things, even as I'm answering them, and almost surprising myself that I'm telling you all this stuff. But I think you sometimes don't know what you think until you hear what you have to say.

Francis Lynch

Interesting that you sort of, you know, almost like that you were trying to, to claim that title. Can you remember that that actually consciously shifted for you at some point? Or is it just that you noticed, at some point, oh, I'm not really doing it anymore?

Ashley Reid

Look, I think it's, you do recognise that you need to be visible, I didn't try and get to be this a CEO because I wanted to, you know, be the boss or be in charge of people, I wanted to use my experience in, you know, hopefully my capability to drive a purpose driven organisation and to lead people to do good work. So I guess I kind of, it wasn't about necessarily ego, but it was also I had a very, very clearly remember that. The first few thoughts I had in my first role was one, what the hell do I do now there's no manual, you can open on day one. Secondly, that voice in your head that says you might not be up for this. And I have to admit, that probably is still there. To some degree, I think it makes the people the leaders I respect the people who have humility, seeing a voice in their head that says, you know, you just may not be up for this, as opposed to, I know everything and, you know, I'm king of the universe. I think the, the other aspect of, of the authority is you recognise that you are actually meant to be visible, you know, there's a fine line between enough self belief to put yourself out there to represent an organisation. And often in difficult times, you know, my current organisation, we're a public health advocate. So we're up against industry up against junk food up against alcohol up against tobacco or whatever. So quite often, you're putting yourself out there as the visible representation. So in some ways, you can't be a shrinking violet, you can't do that stuff, you know, kind of silently and invisibly. But I'm an introvert. So I also have struggled in some ways to remind myself I'm meant to be and I am the visible part and authority of the organisation. So I think what changed over time is because I kind of I did own the authority of it and directed it for purpose, but you also gain a bit of recognition The visible you gain people know who you are. They've seen you on the media, they've seen you in meetings. They've seen you on ministerial roundtables. So over time, you don't have to keep claiming who you are, because you've become visible through the role. I think that was where the shift happened.

Francis Lynch

You and I worked together for for a few years really together at Mercy care. And, you know, I know some of your early work in history, and then where you've gone since then. And like, how did you come to be doing the work that you're doing?

Ashley Reid

That was never planned, I'm always a bit suspicious of people who will seem that they've mapped out and planned a career of most of the people doing that I know, doing amazing work, you know, didn't really set out when they were whatever a teenager thinking this is, this is the path for me. The other thing that I always reflect on, you know, humorously is that no kid anywhere has ever said, When I grew up, I want to be a CEO. Right? So it's not a it's not kind of a one of those life pathways that people tend to map out. I've done a lot of jobs, some really crappy things, some really amazing things. I've always said yes to opportunity, I think if I reflect on trying to give myself the benefit of being challenged, I think that's part of my nature. I've often taken jobs that I thought, Oh, gee, I'm not sure I'm up for this, or will I be able to do it, you know, that kind of fear factor. And the other part, I guess, being the fact that I hadn't planned the career, I have worked with amazing people, I've had a great opportunity to work with amazing people, and also some, you know, pretty not so great bosses as well. And I think over time, you, you start to realise you don't have to emulate others necessarily, you don't have to be someone else. But when you work with good people, they're the kind of behaviours and principles that you want to emulate. And when you work with people that you know, maybe don't have those kinds of values, or you know, bad bosses, so to speak, you also will, I've also thought, You know what, I'll never be like that. I want to emulate that. So you start to make choices about the kind of person you want to be when you do it, and other factors of life, what kind of What kind of father do I want to be what kind of partner and I guess when you're young, you kind of just blow with the winds a bit. And then as you gain experience, and you know, maybe life wisdom, etc, you start to make conscious choices, this is the kind of person I wish to be and who I wish to emulate. So I think being given opportunities, and, and seeing the kind of people I wish to emulate, in some ways does map out your path?

Francis Lynch

And for you, was there a sense when you started that working life that, you know, trajectory to where you are now, was there a point where you sort of started to say, Yeah, this is really the type of work that I want to be doing?

Ashley Reid

Yeah, interestingly, I kind of always thought I'd make a better manager slash leader, and I'm still uncomfortable claiming the type leadership, I think, you don't get to claim it, others get to kind of see that in you, you don't get to say I'm the leader, you know, so that I'm reminded of that, saying that, you know, management is authority, but leadership is influence. And, I guess, when, when I was thinking or in early in my career, I thought, you know, what, if I continue it as a, you know, frontline practitioner, kind of, you know, in that way, I am quite literally helping one person at a time. And that is absolutely valuable. And it's, it's, it's incredible work and, and privilege for those people who can do and are good at it. But in my mind, I wanted to have more influence, I wanted it to be more of scale. And I realised that as a kind of as a frontline worker, in whatever field you're in, you do struggle to have effect on scale. And I knew that in organisational hierarchy and around decision making, whether it's more senior management roles or roles that are working across governance, or policy, or just decisions making around strategy, you've got the opportunity to have influence on scale. And I think, early on, I saw that the people that were effecting change or great change, not just globally, but even in your own community, of people who understand that if they can work at scale, they can help many more people. And I think that was the transition from a from again, kind of blunt one on one being valuable and worthwhile. But considering that I wanted to have effect on some sort of scale,

Francis Lynch

and is there a sort of through line for you in terms of that wanting to make change even though I know you have like your last two positions are quite different. So being in a gallery and now accounts cancel, and then even at Mercy care, so but but is that the through line is that about trying to influence change.

Ashley Reid

I think so. And I think I've always thought I mean, there's, there's many ways to make money. You know, if you want to make real money, you're gonna be a stockbroker or, you know, go to Wall Street or, you know, work in finance or something that was never a draw to me. I mean, obviously, I'm a pragmatist as well, you know, you've got to raise a family and pay the bills. And, you know, it's, you know, and I have volunteered as well. So you can do paid unpaid work. But there are many ways to earn a living I, I have always consciously, I've strived to earn a living by making a contribution. And that's not trying to claim, you know, that I've changed the world. But I think I know many people that earn a lot of money, but don't have meaning. Or they have accumulated, you know, wealth, possessions, but still find that they don't make a meaningful or haven't made a meaningful contribution. And the best people I've ever worked with are people who genuinely enjoy getting out of bed every day and trying to make things a bit better. I think sometimes we're all naive in the community and health sector that we want to change the world in five minutes. And, you know, what, why don't politicians understand this could be better, why don't the community understand you know, and we all are impatient. So one of the things I love about the sector that we work in is, one we seem to be eternal optimists, because we front up every day thinking we can make it better. And, and the other, the other part is just the the resilience and the perseverance that goes with trying to make things better for you, for your community, for your family, for your children. It's, it's a huge buzz, it's got it's got meaning to it. So yes, you can earn a living and you can do interesting intellectual, stimulating work, and you can, you know, affect change, which is I think, what I get the most out of it,

Francis Lynch

who do you think has been most influential in bringing you into the, to the way of living that you are now, could be recent could be a long time ago,

Ashley Reid

look, reflecting on I did a presentation to leadership wa recently, and you know, talking to emerging leaders is just the most joyous thing, because you're seeing, you know, such optimism and such, you know, people just looking to really come into the sector and make change, but also, not everyone gets the opportunity. And I, I firmly believe that people that are in privileged positions like mine, like yours, like people that have been able to be in senior roles or in leadership roles, very few people talk about luck. And I reflect on luck a lot, not because I haven't worked hard and not because you know, you don't deserve the rewards of working hard. But I am immensely lucky to be born into the family I was born into with parents who were supportive and loving with food on the table and an education. I'm lucky to have not suffered abuse and discrimination. I'm lucky to be born in a first world country with amazing health care. And you know, that the the infinite things that can happen to put you want a position where you can take use or take benefit of opportunity is a hell of a lot of luck. So when you talk about where you're influenced, I know it sounds a bit cliched, but I feel immensely lucky to have had the parents I've had, as far as never handed anything on a plate of work from crappy part time jobs to buy my first car to you know, moving out of home and being on your own two feet. And that's not a sob story. That's because, you know, I was very well informed and instructed as a child that if you want to make your way in the world, you got to work for it. And you've got to put your hand up and take opportunities when they come because they might not come again. So in some ways, influence I think, you know, from from my parents and immediate family, my maternal grandmother, Dorothy Easton was a school teacher, she bought me my love of reading and music taught me piano, gave me books that were always slightly above my reading level to challenge me, you know, those kinds of amazing people in your family, you've probably got similar. And then in my working life, I think I've been immensely lucky. And I've not really pursued formal mentors, but they've kind of come to me at the right times without even the title if you know what I mean. People like Michael rootin, for mercy care, Jeff siempre. En carta I'd put on that list for sure helped me so much when I was first kind of getting into my first co roles. Mike Daube, Ruth sheen. There's some just incredible people that I've worked with that have been so generous with their experience and wisdom and I get a big kick out of assisting others with with sharing that experience because again, there's Do you often get the clean brochure version of leadership? You know the the nice sanitised linear book chapter version, whereas it's usually messy and painful and scary. And not many people talk about that. And the best mentor, the best mentors I've had have absolutely admitted that they've had times of disillusionment or they've had times of struggling with God, I don't know what to do about this, or am I going to be able to get through this? Or Everyone's looking at me, like, I know what I'm doing? And what if I don't, you know, things, those things are scary. And they're often not talked about in, in, in reference to being in senior roles or in leadership roles.

Francis Lynch

Like if somebody comes to you and says, I'm in this leadership position, and I'm really struggling, and what do I do? What do you say?

Ashley Reid

It's actually my favourite question, because the first thing I say is, that's okay. That's normal. You know, it's, it's the assumption that everyone's got it together all the time. That is actually, you know, and I'm talking in society, as well as in, you know, management and leadership roles. I think, particularly for our more junior staff, and we've got some amazingly sharp, smart, incredible people that Cancer Council, predominantly female staff, so young women that are unbelievably clever and smart, and, and in some cases, lack self confidence. And it always astounds me because, you know, they're probably way smarter than me in the room. And at the same time, giving people encouragement that they don't have to have all the answers all the time. And sometimes, acting is better than not acting. One thing I learned about working with boards is, if you boil our job descriptions right down, we're being paid to make decisions. And you'll be judged more harshly if you don't make decisions. If you prevaricate, if you're vague, if you wish, you'll be judged more harshly than if you make a mistake. And it was a really eye opening and empowering thing for me to realise that I'm actually being paid to make decisions. That delegated authority or in cliche terms, the buck does stop with that authority. Everyone's looking at you to make a decision, you're never going to have enough time or enough information or enough resources to make the perfect decision. But don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Military saying, but people are looking to you to make a decision. If you make the right one, then it's well done team. And if you make the wrong one, you put up your hand and you own it, and you go to the board. And that's the fundamental difference about being a CEO, in my view, and being part of an executive team. And executive team gets to kind of collaboratively own success and failure. A CEO shouldn't always claim it, because it's a team effort. But if things go badly, you have to own it. And it's also I guess, why some people legitimately don't want that responsibility. Being asked it in, in our culture, we seem to have, we have an assumption that everyone wants to be the boss or everyone wants to get up the ladder, or everyone wants to be higher than their current role. And not everyone does. Not everyone wants that responsibility. And it's a you know, I often say to the leadership who grew up you know, is when you talk about leadership, be careful what you wish for, really think about whether you want that do you want the kind of responsibility and challenge and sometimes outright fear that goes with it? This part, there's a part of me that actually really likes that maybe it's the American streak, or the kind of wanting to challenge myself, but it's not right for everyone. It's not good for everyone. So I think it's one of those things, you've got to be careful about your own nature before you say, you know, I want this role.

Francis Lynch

I suppose leadership to not everybody in leadership is necessarily in the CEO role. So you know, there are executives and other people and, and the informal leaders. So there's many people who, who show leadership within their work without necessarily even being in a role that would necessarily be identified as a as a senior role. But do you think that so your experience has, has leadership on balance been a good experience for you? So being in the executive roles in the CEO roles? Has that been something that has has made sense to you?

Ashley Reid

Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, I do struggle for term. I think we all struggle for terminology sometimes. And I, I never say the word leadership, meaning the boss or meaning, you know, a particular delegated role. A CEO has the senior delegated authority to bind the organisation. So it's, it is by definition, you know, the chief of the executive officers. It's a dumb way of describing it really is, it's probably a better title that we could come up with, but I see leadership in all levels and all roles all the time. So With the most influential and amazing people in my current organisation, do not necessarily have seen your delegation, you know, from reception to our lodge staff to our volunteer drivers. I mean, people show and demonstrate passion for our purpose and influence and leadership in everything they do. So it's, it's incredible. One of the things I've I've I've reflected on a lot is the kind of person that you want to be in those leadership roles. And I'm talking now about, you know, more senior roles, more visible roles. One of my favourite sayings is, don't confuse gentle with weak, I think we've come through a tradition of leadership being authoritarian, or, you know, raised voice, not the table type style, probably, probably too masculine, probably, you know, too paternal, etc. Some of the most influential leaders, I've seen other ones who speak quietly and with authority, and, you know, I think it's a bit like parenting, by the time you're raising your voice, you've lost authority. I have tried very, very hard in my role to be, approach it gently. And when we do difficult things, we can still do them. Well, you know, I've had to do some terrible things in my time, make people redundant through loss of services, you know, restructuring the kinds of things that are very pragmatic for organisations, but but agony to do. And the very best people I've seen, that I've always sought to emulate are the ones that do those difficult things, but they do them gently, and they do them with kindness. And they they do hard things. Well, you can do, you can do hard things brutally. But I think when I think about that level of leadership and influence, it's where you do the most difficult things, but do them well, and do them with kindness.

Francis Lynch

I wonder whether, you know, in the sense of if if somebody has a not a certainty, necessarily, but they have an understanding of you know, that they have a touchstone, they, you know, I'm going to use the word purpose. I mean, that's, that's what this podcast talks about. But do you think if if you are clear on your why on your purpose, that that makes those really difficult times and that difficult decision making any easier?

Ashley Reid

Look, absolutely. And I think that's broader than our work, I think when we feel we have a purpose, you know, to raise a family or to, you know, be a part of our community, it's often because you want to make it better for others. It's not necessarily making it better for yourself. But of course, you know, again, as a pragmatist, when you make your family, you know, when you improve the life of your family, and your community and your society, you are making it better for yourself, I still think we were we should be allowed to talk about self interest. That's, that's, I think, a powerful motivator, I'd rather live in a community that was supportive and focused on well being and was a better place for my daughters to grow up. That's self interest, I have no shame in saying that. That's, that's some self interest. But I can, I can hopefully do that and influence that. In the role I've gotten in the you know, as the person you are. The Cancer Council's purpose is one of those fascinating ones that's really easy to say, and really hard to do. So our purpose is to reduce the incidence and impact of cancer on the West Australian community, one line in our Constitution. It's bloody, fiendishly hard to do. But it is elegantly simple. I can explain who I can explain it to the next door neighbor's kid. And they'll understand, you know, we want less people to have cancer. And if they do, we want them to have a better outcome and a better life. It's not hard to talk about, of course, it manifests in a whole range of complicated and evidence based work, from public health campaigns to prevention to support services to research investment. But if, when I get when I feel myself getting a bit overwhelmed with that complexity, you know, pandemics notwithstanding with fundraising going off a cliff, and, and the whole world changing so quickly. When I get overwhelmed by that complexity, I have to remind myself that our purpose is actually really simple. But simple doesn't mean easy. I think sometimes we get, we get a bit confused in our society, in our culture about wanting to explain complicated things in overly complicated ways, as opposed to can we explain this in the simplest possible way? And I think we can we I think we were getting better at being clear and simpler. And I've reflected to my board a number of times, it's much harder for me to write a simple report than a complicated one. You know, long complicated reports are pretty easy to write. You just keep pouring in more stuff. distilling something down to clear and simple essence and strategy And action is actually the most fiendishly hard part. And that's the that's the part I find the most intellectually challenging. That's about I love.

Francis Lynch

Do you are you able to describe your your purpose and not not Cancer Council? But what's what's Ashley's purpose?

Ashley Reid

That's a really fascinating one. And whenever someone says that what a great question it's usually code for give me time to think, right? Look, I'm very family orientated. I've got to between my partner and I, we have four daughters, all teenagers. So, you know, often that's where people give us sympathy, because they for teenage daughters, but they are delightful human beings. And we just, you know, we just love them crazily. But I think purpose, I always knew I wanted to be a dad. And I always knew what I was hoping I could be a dad, and the thought of raising children better than you, and I don't mean more successful, but you know, wiser, kinder, gentler. And the thought of having an I see this amazing generational shift my, my daughter's way more environmentally conscious way more politically savvy way more well, being focused than I ever was at that age. It's a it's a, it's quite a transition from a generational point of view. And of course, they couple that negativity of you know, being obsessed with social media and, you know, millennials that don't know how to work and can't communicate, and all that negativity, you see, I find fundamentally untrue, doesn't mean they don't need to learn things about the world. But I think my own purpose is has been to just to take the luck that I've had in, in my own family and parenting, that of how I was parented, and hopefully do a better job, and for them to do a better job. And I know, that sounds like a bit of a legacy conversation, but that's actually why I do the work. I do. It's Yes, to help others, but it's also that from so my kids and my family can grow up in a hopefully a better world than we took on, you know, leave it better than you found that kind of approach. And my own purpose, I guess, if you know, from a, from a selfish point of view, I really, I have a strong desire to be intellectually kind of stimulated to be challenged, I find myself challenging myself. And I'm way more self critical. I'm way more self critical than anyone has ever been critical to me externally. Maybe that's another character trait. But but but continually challenging myself to do things that are sometimes pretty scary and, and you know, that you're fearful of, I just find that is a pretty unrelenting drive in my nature.

Francis Lynch

For you that that intellectual drive, where do you think that? Where do you think that comes from?

Ashley Reid

It's a good question. One thing I don't often talk about, I think I spent a lot of time in my life, feeling apologetic that I haven't actually finished a university degree. And that's almost heresy. I think, in some ways, you know, when somebody in a very senior role admits, well, you know, actually, I didn't finish university. And I felt that was a huge gap. For me for a long time, I was basically, in my own mind, continually apologetic, and it made me work so hard. I also realised over time, and I don't apologise for it now, I've been a CEO for over 10 years. And what coming up is, and I've worked in very senior roles, I discovered a couple of things. One is that there's no degree to be a CEO. Right? There's no such qualification. Secondly, if I'm, I had one of my 10 Most Influential mentors say to me, because I was complaining, not complaining, I was saying, you know, should I go back and finish, I feel like it's a big gap. I feel like, you know, others won't maybe respect where I've, what I've come to, if I don't have that, you know, that backing or that, that background? And they said to me straight out? Have you ever thought about the fact that you had to work way harder to get where you are without a degree than if you had words to that effect. And it was one of those stop you in your tracks kind of thing? Because, you know, I have worked front counter upwards and maybe, maybe this generation, we're the last generation that can actually do that, because it's pretty rare these days to be able to go from you know, front counter up. But at the same time, I when you talk about the drive to be intellectually stimulated, one of the reasons I mean, I did two years at uni and just was working long hours part time had no money, you know, wanted to itching to get out there and earn a living and be independent and all the things that drive you at that age. But I've always been intellectually, ravenous, so I could never find a single thing to study that would that would keep me interested or challenged. It As more that polymath approach, you know, I find myself reading religious texts, even though I'm not religious, I've read philosophy, I've read every classic book, I can find tomes of psychological readings, the list goes on. And I'm not saying any of that to show off, I'm saying that because I find things that I'm stimulated by, and I devour them. And it's one of the things I'm stimulated by intellectually in this role. Because, again, there's no, there's no perfect background to become the kind of do the kind of role we do. You are a similar assimilating and distilling complex information all the time, you are working at an emotionally difficult level, that kind of EQ approach about diplomacy and communication, and getting others to be motivated and morale and all those things, there's, there's no such qualification for any of that. And yet, it's the job I absolutely love. So I don't apologise anymore. And I think that that's partly why when I talk about my my drive, and part of the myself, that's a drive around being intellectually stimulated, is because I just don't think you ever stop learning. And I'm not sure, you know, often the university degrees to kind of ticket in, thoroughly map out what the rest of your career looks like. And the best people I know, are the ones who have just been learning nonstop the whole time. And I think that's, that's also something I admire in others. So maybe that's a part of me that I often don't talk about, but it's actually a really strong driver.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai